Battery/charger concerns

[Rick]

4 Pack RCR123A 3V 900mAh Rechargeable Li-Ion Battery with Smart Charger

I acquired this device for my 6V vaping. When I got my batteries, they had a residual reading of 3.85V. Since being new, and that I did not think too much of it. Story in Chamelion review.

Anyway, what concerns me is that the charger tally on the back states Input 12V dc 250mA and Output: 4.5V dc 360mA. When I charged the batts (in pairs) the batts came out @ 4.19 and 4.201V respectively. These are protected batts, the protection circuit in the batts should have prevented overcharging. You have seen my other posts wrt being cautious with LI Ions. Anyway the batteries were fine, not hot and operated for their cycle. The downside of these batts, I want to vape at 6V not 7.4V

I have e-mailed batt junction and have yet to receive a response. On their site they say this is the only charger to be used with these Batts???? What say you?

It is obvious that the overcharge protection did not work on these batts, unless the PCB is designed for 3.7V batts.

I have not used the other batts as of yet, they all read 3.85V residual which is about an 90% charge for a 3.7V battery.

I have 4 batts like in the pic and ordered 2 extra. Pic provided although it says 750 mAh on that one, mine are similar with a blue C and blue bottom band but 3.0V 900 mAh. I am confused. ... and yes I have verified and they do have a protection circuit.

Any ideas folks?

[mcquinn]

When you are measuring those with your meter they are not under load and flowing very little current I would say the protection circut board allows a few seconds for things to stabilise before taking any action ,those have the most safety devices of any of the batteries.If you look at the tech. spec. chart on the Tenergy RCR123A 3.0V 900mAh Rechargeable Li-Ion Battery (as low as) $3.99! it shows voltage as high as you were reading as normal.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by mcquinn

When you are measuring those with your meter they are not under load and flowing very little current I would say the protection circut board allows a few seconds for things to stabilise before taking any action ,those have the most safety devices of any of the batteries.If you look at the tech. spec. chart on the Tenergy RCR123A 3.0V 900mAh Rechargeable Li-Ion Battery (as low as) $3.99! it shows voltage as high as you were reading as normal.

OK you had me totally confused for quite a bit there Mike. I floated back and forth between my link and the as low as... In your opinion these are totally safe to use, regardless if they come off the charger at 4.2V?

I was expecting 3V batts to charge up to 3.6V which is the norm for 3V batts? Is this assumption false?

I have no idea what the voltage under load is? By what I can see and what you are saying, is that under load they will produce 3V ea for a total of 6V when stacked. Is that assumption correct?

I am presently topping off from 90% and I will check the voltage after the light goes green and I take them off the charger. Tomorrow I'll vape on the other set with a residual 3.85V (never been charged). You see Mike my confusion is stemming from I am not expecting to see residual voltage that high, on a 3V batt. Is that assumption wrong? If they were comong off the charger at let's say 3.7 I would be happy with that.

It also states in the charger specs that a normal 3.6V charger is insufficient to charge these batteries. I am feeling a little safer, but uneasy nonetheless. As I previously stated I have the utlost respect for LI Ions and I bought what I believe to be good batteries, both these and my pricey AWs.

[mcquinn]

Where is Royal and his long winded explanations when you need him?I cut and pasted some info on one of them here is the bit that covers it ,this is not the cell you have but it shows the normal kind of variations in voltage.
"Internal voltage regulators. Initial cell voltage of 3.6V switches to 3-3.2V within 12ms. "

Tenergy RCR123A 3.0V 900mAh Rechargeable Li-Ion Battery

Features:
Rechargeable CR123A Li-Ion Batteries with 3.0V working voltage and 900mAh capacity.
Tenergy RCR123A can be recharged up to 1000 times.
1 RCR123A Li-ion = 1000 CR123A Primary Cells
Replace the most of CR123A primary Lithium battery for a digital cameras and most flashlights.
Internal voltage regulators. Initial cell voltage of 3.6V switches to 3-3.2V within 12ms.
Full PCB protection against: Over-Discharge, Over-Charge, Short Circuit & Over-Current along with voltage regulation.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by mcquinn

Where is Royal and his long winded explanations when you need him?I cut and pasted some info on one of them here is the bit that covers it ,this is not the cell you have but it shows the normal kind of variations in voltage.
"Internal voltage regulators. Initial cell voltage of 3.6V switches to 3-3.2V within 12ms. "

Tenergy RCR123A 3.0V 900mAh Rechargeable Li-Ion Battery

Features:
Rechargeable CR123A Li-Ion Batteries with 3.0V working voltage and 900mAh capacity.
Tenergy RCR123A can be recharged up to 1000 times.
1 RCR123A Li-ion = 1000 CR123A Primary Cells
Replace the most of CR123A primary Lithium battery for a digital cameras and most flashlights.
Internal voltage regulators. Initial cell voltage of 3.6V switches to 3-3.2V within 12ms.
Full PCB protection against: Over-Discharge, Over-Charge, Short Circuit & Over-Current along with voltage regulation.

I was going to post the title - Royal, but thought better not to, in order not to insult the membership.

I charged them last night and they came off the charger after the light turned green at 4.04 and 4.05 respectively. Neither the batts nor the charger was warm. So I am cool with that. There doesn't seem to be an overheating problem happening here. I have yet to hear from BJ.

The batts this morning meter at 3.95-6Volts. I have yet to vape HV, a little too early in the morning.

WRT the specs Mike that is what I have read also. From the "kit" page:

Charger Features:

• Smart, build-in microprocessor automatically switch off when batteries are fully charged.
• Safe build-in IC provides various protection, Thermal protection, Overcharge protection, Short-circuit protection, mechanical. and electrical protection against reversal polarity, and auto defective battery identification.
• Includes 100-240V AC adapter for worldwide use and a convenient, DC 12V car cigarette lighter plug for on the road charging.
• Compact ( 2.5 x 4 x 1 inch ), Light weight (only 5 oz), include charger and all accessories.
• Charge 1 to 2 RCR123A from 1.5 hours to 3 hours. Peak voltage of 3.0V Li-Ion will be 3.60V after fully charged.

CR123A Features:

• Rechargeable CR123A Li-Ion Batteries with 3.0V working voltage and 900mAh capacity.
• Tenergy RCR123A can be recharged up to 1000 times. 1 RCR123A Li-ion = 1000 CR123A Primary Cells
• Replaces CR123A primary Lithium batteries for most digital cameras and many LED flashlights.
• Dimension: 16.5 D x 34 H mm.
• Cell weight: 17 g or 0.6 Oz.

Warnings:

• You must use the 3.0V RCR123A battery charger included to charge these 900mah RCR123A 3.0V batteries, please do not use other chargesr nor charge other batteries with this charger.
• This Charger can not be used to charge any other 3.0 or 3.6V RCR123A cells or they may explode!

and from the battery page:

Warning:
Charge ONLY with our Tenergy branded charger linked below. Do not mix/match with primary cells or other rechargeable CR123A cells. Do not mix these cells and the 750mah Tenergy cells concurrently in the same device. Do not mix charged and uncharged cells in any device. You must use the 3.0V RCR123A Li-Ion 900mAh battery charger linked below to charge these batteries. Please do not use other charger, including any 3.6V Li-Ion bttery charger, which can not full charge the 3.0V Li-Ion batteries.

The first part of the warning is slef explanatory, that is why we mark our sets etc...

As I said I treat Lithium batts with respect. But as we know their does exist a lot of marketing BS out there, ...and that is what we are trying to decipher here.

Thanks for all the help to date Mike.

[Royal]

My mother-in-law is passing and we have been out of town a lot, and I will be for awhile to come.

I think the main difference in the 900 mah and the 750 mah batts is that the 900 mah batteries are traditional li-ion while the 750 mah are LiFePO4
(Lithium Iron phosphate). From what I understand is LiFEPO4s can handle a much heavier load/discharge rate, and is said that they cannot leak, explode or catch fire according to tenergy.

The chemistry of the two batteries is different therefore it stands to reason that the manner in which they charge might also be different.

The 750 mah LiFePO4s is what I have been using for over a year now, and have yet to have one go bad. All I can say is, I do what is recommended by the manufacturer, and charge them with the specific charger for these batteries.

I might add that though the 750 mah batteries says Li-ion on them, this is because they are in the same class and family as traditional Li-ions, but the chemistry and make up of the two is different.

Also, you may find that the 750 mah LiFePO4s are slightly larger in size than the traditional 900 mah li-ions.

When I am using two of the 750 mah LiFePO4s stepped down to 5 volts through a resistor, I average about 6 hours on a charge. While on the Mako with a 1600 mah 14650 at 3.7 volts, I get roughly the same, using Joye 510s on both. Go figure.

I just wish the Mako was wide enough to accept the RCR123a LiFePO4s. These protected CR2s I got are to wimpy to handle a Joye510. The protection circuit cuts out with the 510, but works ok with penstyles. I have run the RCR123A LiFePO4s at 6 volts on a Joye 510 with no problem.

There is that long winded enough for ya?

[Rick]

Sorry to hear about your MIL Royal.

I should not have posted the batt picture. Yes that is a LifePO4 batt rated @ 750 mAh. Compared to the pic one set of my 900 mAh LI Ion are the same as the pic but with a dark blue stripe an the C is also dark blue. The other that have come with the battery charger as a kit are like what is provided in the link.

I have tested the batts on my lizard and unloaded put out 7.5V which is what I suspected, vice the 6.2/6V of 3V batts.

I got word back from BJ, not very favourable. That is the last time they will be seeing any of my cash in the future. They have not answered my question and simply state I can return the product for full refund minus the cost of the original shipping and 15% re-stocking fee, if I am not totally satisfied with my purchase. Well that would equate to $32 on a $70 purchase. I don't think so. Also to expect at least a delay of two billing terms before I see a credit on my CC.

WTH I never said I wasn't satisfied with my purchase, just queried if it was safe to use. Based on what I have read etc... Tenergy batts are suppose to be good batts. I think I may have mis-labelled batts. I will have to wait and see what they respond to my clarifications, because they are either ignoring my query or are not understanding the question.

[Royal]

They will read normal voltage just like any normal 3.7 or 3.6 volt cell without being under any load. Under load, is when they are dropped to a working voltage of 3.0 volts.

Quoted from tenergy.

Tenergy Li-Ion RCR123A 3.0V 750mAh LiFePO4 Rechargeable Battery (Item Number: 30200)


Item Number: 30200



New Chemical LiFePO4 Li-Ion battery

• Rechargeable LiFePO4 RCR123A 3.0V 750mAhBattery
• Life cycle: 2000 times (Traditional Li-ion: 500 times)
• Never explode or catch fire
• 100% Compatible with Disposable CR123A Batteries
• Working Voltage:3.2V and Peak Voltage: 3.6V
• Charging cut-off voltage: 3.6V
• Discharge cut-off voltage: 2.2V
  • Please never overdischarge battery below 2.2V/cell
  • Charge the this battery with LiFePO4 RCR123A smart charger.
• Capacity: 750 mAh
• Maximum discharging rate:< 550 mA
• Maximum charge current: <550 mA
• Cell's dimension: 17mm Dia. x 34.5mm H.
• Weight: 0.6 oz (18 grams).

Item Number: 30201

• Rechargeable CR123A Li-Ion Batteries with 3.0V working voltage and 900mAh capacity.
• Tenergy RCR123A can be recharged up to 1000 times. 1 RCR123A Li-ion = 1000 CR123A Primary Cells
• Replaces most of CR123A primary Lithium battery for a digital cameras and flashlight
• Internal voltage regulators.

Modified Voltage to achieve 3.2v at full voltage; once loaded, cell voltage drops to 3.0v.

• Internal over-charge and over-discharge protection to prevent battery over use. The current will be shut off when the battery voltage drops below 2.5V.
• Dimension: 16 D x 34 H mm. (The height 34mm includes the button top)
• Weight: 17 g or 0.6 Oz.
• Good for flashlights, Camera etc.
• This battery is not compatible with SureFire Flashlights

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS


Symbol Name Conditions MIN.
TYPICAL MAX. Unit VDET1 Over-Charge
detect voltage4.300 4.325 4.375 V TVDDET1 Output delay of over-Charge C3=0.01uF, VDD=3.6, V->4.4V 175 250 325 ms VDET2
Over-discharge detect voltage

2.4 2.5 2.6 V TVDET2 Output delay of over-Discharge VDD=3.6V,V->2.4V 14 20 26 ms VDET3 Excess current detect voltage 0.105 <0.125 0.145 V IEC Excess current threshold 3.0 3.5 A TVDET3 Output delay of Excess current VDD=3.0V 8 12 16 ms IDD Supply current VDD=3.9V, V-=0V 3 6 uA ISTANDBY Standby current VDD=2.0V 0.2 uA

I have highlighted the areas of your concern in red.
You see, these have what you might call a built in regulator to step them down to 3.0 volts while under load. It takes only 8 to 16 milliseconds for the voltage to be stepped down once a load has been applied.

Regardless of the design of the lable, it should state on the lable whether it is a 3.0 volt cell or not, and what the mah rating is. From what I have been able to gather from tenergy.com I don't belive they make a standard 3.7 volt RCR123A. The only two I can find from them are the 900mah and the 750 mah LiFePO4. Both of which are 3.0 volt cells.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Royal

They will read normal voltage just like any normal 3.7 or 3.6 volt cell without being under any load. Under load, is when they are dropped to a working voltage of 3.0 volts.

I have highlighted the areas of your concern in red.
You see, these have what you might call a built in regulator to step them down to 3.0 volts while under load. It takes only 8 to 16 milliseconds for the voltage to be stepped down once a load has been applied.

Regardless of the design of the lable, it should state on the lable whether it is a 3.0 volt cell or not, and what the mah rating is. From what I have been able to gather from tenergy.com I don't belive they make a standard 3.7 volt RCR123A. The only two I can find from them are the 900mah and the 750 mah LiFePO4. Both of which are 3.0 volt cells.

This is all understood Royal and I truely do appreciate all the efforts that have been pit into this subject to appease my mind:

Quoted Tenergy Official Site - Universal Smart Charger for RCR123A 3.0V 900mAh Li-ion recha


Universal Smart Charger for RCR123A 3.0V 900mAh Li-ion rechargeable Batteries (Item Number: 01208)


Item Number: 01208

Key features

• Smart, build-in microprocessor automatically switch off when batteries are fully charged.
• Safe, build-in IC provides various protection, Thermal protection, Overcharge protection, Short-circuit protection, mechanical. and electrical protection against reversal polarity, and auto defective battery identification.
• Convenient, 12V car cigarette lighter plug for on the road charging.
• Compact ( 2.5 x 4 x 1 inch ), Light weight ( 5 oz only ), include charger and all accessories.
• Charge 1 to 2 RCR123A from 1.5 hours to 3 hours. Peak voltage of 3.0V Li-Ion will be 3.60V after fully charged.

This charger only works with our Tenergy RCR123A 900mAh and not compatible with Tenergy RCR123A 750mAh batteries

Please read red. Mine are coming off the charger, as in the link at 4.2 Volts, give or take. The reply from BJ =

Hi Richard,

Thank you for the follow up e-mail. I checked with the technical department regarding your question and it is normal to start 4.2-4.5 . The batteries are safe to use as long as the device is designed to use the batteries.

Now do you understand why I am so confused. My device is safe to use the batteries if I want to vape at 7.4V, I have that capability with my AWs, I would like 6V, hence why I purchased the Tenergys.

All that being said, in your learned opinion is this charger and batteries safe to use. It may very well be a moot point wrt BJ, as I believe I have owned them for longer than a week. The last thing I need is 18 x 16340 batts at 3.6/7 volts, but if safe for use will use those up first.

[Rick]

Thanks for all that have helped with my dilemma. It seems that after much research on other unrelated sites that these batteries and charger are indeed safe to use, and compatible for a 6V application.

Not thoroughly convinced (high voltages) I tried a fresh one on the screwdriver and it just barely fired. Swapping the batt out for an AW 3.7V, the atty fired properly.

I had been vaping all evening on an 801 with my tenergys and all was well. I decided to insert my AWs and popped the atty. So I tried the AWs with the XHV 801 @ 5.2 Ohms I had purchased and there was a definite difference.

So I would have to say that these batts do indeed reduce their voltage under load, something I am not set up to measure. The good news is that battery life on these batts is phenominal at HV. I inserted these in my lizard some time before 4 pm and they are still going with a residual voltage of 3.6V. That being said I believe they are on their last legs, which IMHO is pretty much on par for a 900 mAh battery.

This battery stuff is not the easiest thing to wrap your head around, especially with the inconsistencies of the Chinese mfrs, the reported incidents and all the variable battery specs, not to mention the mumbo jumbo of the specs themselves. Although I have attended Battery U, it will be a long time before I graduate.

I am glad I was cautious with these batteries. It caused me to dig deeper than I normally would because I remained unconvinced. In the long run in retsospect, loosing a $7 atty was far cheaper than any other alternative I was facing. Once again thanks for all your help.